The Never Ending Pool

As this month is the 20th anniversary of Bob embracing a very weird, curiously Mormon version of Christianity, as much influenced by Hal Lindsey's "The Late, Great Planet Earth" as by the Bible [several authors], this seems an appropriate question to ask.

Before voting, you might like to check out the recent debate on the more narrow subject "Is the Catholic Church a force for good in the world?" broadcast by the BBC earlier this month. The final vote convinced me that the best advocates for religious scepticism are believers themselves, and that the more they are heard, the more atheism will prevail.

Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvZz_pxZ2lw

Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFTj9n40rNo

Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvDz9_5me74

Part 4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0HnNuVVNAQ

Part 5: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qv8LEejj2rQ


Of course, this doesn't alter Bob's great artistic achievement with the Slow Train Coming and Saved albums. What a shame they were inspired by such an intellectually and (especially) morally bankrupt institution; and by the most spiritually impoverished, morally stunted perversion of that already benighted institution at that. It shows how the human gifts of music and language transcend even the most backward and repugnant atavistic thought systems. But should we allow the genius of a Milton or a Dylan to blind us to the toxic reality of religion? This question remains open for me only for duration of reading "Paradise Lost" or listening to "In the Garden."

I don't know how to make a poll on this board, so please post "Yes" if you think that religion is a force for good, and "No" if you think it is not. You are of course at liberty to expand on your opinion as you wish.

Anticipating Mack's reply, yes I wish the BBC had the guts to air a debate on whether Islam is a force for good in the world, but it doesn't.

raggedclown wrote:

QUOTE:
Before voting, you might like to check out the recent debate on the more narrow subject "Is the Catholic Church a force for good in the world?" broadcast by the BBC earlier this month.

This is about as far as I got !

rc I really wish you would get over you rage and hate !

First off name one group in the world (other than the US Goverment) that does more charitable work than the Catholic Church.

Second try and wrap you hateful brain arround the % factor.

In other words, if you have 1000 homosexual men in a room X amount are going to be child molesters. Does that mean the ones left in the room are also NFG ?

If you have 1000 coppers in a room X amount are going to be dirty. Does that mean the ones left in the room are also NFG ?

If you have 1000 Afro-Americans in a room X amount are going to be thieves. Does that mean the ones left in the room are also NFG ?

Why can't you understand religions are made up of humans and when ever you have anything to do with human nature your going to have some bad.

Why do you obesse about religion and the Catholic Church, don't you have anything better to waste those brain cells on ?

So was that a yes or a no?

Also, you seem to be saying that religious people are no better or no worse than anyone else. But either religious values are transcendent, or they are not, surely? Surely, even if humans are fallible, religion should, if its values are better than the run of the mill, make them at least a bit better than the average? Otherwise, you are saying that religious people are more stupid and more morally retarded than the average; that despite having this superior, transcendent belief system, they are still no better than anyone else!

As I see it, the opposite is true: non-religious people are more likely to be moral than those who need a holy book to tell them how to behave. Do you seriously believe that the Jewish people left their Egyptian bondage and marched into the desert without knowing right from wrong? That they didn't know before Moses (a murderer, by the way) came down from the mountain that it was wrong to steal or to kill? They wouldn't have made it that far without knowing that already. Human freedom, morality, and spirituality begin with the denial of religion.

No.

I abandoned the catholic church at the age of 15 because of the hypocrisy I saw there. Since then I've learned to make up my own mind and not be brainswashed by any organised religion.

And you don't need any organised religion to be religious.

raggedclown wrote:

QUOTE:
Do you seriously believe that the Jewish people left their Egyptian bondage and marched into the desert without knowing right from wrong?

I sure do, seriously believe it and just finished reading a book about the matter. Tonight I'll be going to a lecture on it and I'll be wearing my new Moses lied shirt !

Dylan's late 70s, early 80s albums were inspired by his belief, not by the church. I wonder: who was it who said that we degrade faith by talking about religion?

kasper wrote:

QUOTE:
Dylan's late 70s, early 80s albums were inspired by his belief, not by the church. I wonder: who was it who said that we degrade faith by talking about religion?

http://spacemonkeylab.com/dylandaily/blog/archives/00000479.php

"A religious person? Religion is supposedly a force for positive good. Where can you look in the world and see that religion has been a force for positive good? ... We degrade faith by talking about religion."

strange that so many priests and ministers are child molesters. A majority of wars and atrocities are done in the name of God. The Iranian president Amnodamgoodinbed tortures women in the name of whatever devil he calls God. The organised religions Ive tried have as many hypocrits as can be found elsewhere. I think me and Bob are in the same place about religeon.

Some people need reasons for life and death. No problem.

But lots of people accept the word of God as delivered by some authoritative faker. That's a tragedy.



I may think Dylan is a God, but I wouldn't believe a word he says.

ragged, I may respond in depth when I have more time, but really, can you name one defense of Christianity you're read in the last 10 years? And if so, please refute _that_. You're posts are beginning to remind me of "Ditchkens," and of the point made at length by a good many Christian thinkers now, that the arguments of the New Atheists are neither new nor learned. Really now, doubt is one honorable, but to be honest it must be defended as vigilantly as belief.

Caribbean Wind wrote:

QUOTE:
No.

I abandoned the catholic church at the age of 15 because of the hypocrisy I saw there. Since then I've learned to make up my own mind and not be brainswashed by any organised religion.

And you don't need any organised religion to be religious.

You don't need organized religion to sense that there is more to life than the material world, I agree. And you don't need to leave the Catholic Church, you just need to live awhile, to learn the truth of that Catholic/Christian doctrine that we all fall short of our ideals. Show me an idealist in or out of the Church and I'll show you a "hypocrite" -- or, as the case may be, a decent human being failing but still struggling to love up to his ideals.

Pufmama wrote:

QUOTE:
A majority of wars and atrocities are done in the name of God. T

Stalin? Pol Pot? Kim Jong Il? Is religion the cause or the convenient excuse? Depends upon the religion. Anyhow, you're reiterating Enlightenment thinking. How well have those projections panned out?

raggedclown wrote:

QUOTE:
Also, you seem to be saying that religious people are no better or no worse than anyone else. But either religious values are transcendent, or they are not, surely? Surely, even if humans are fallible, religion should, if its values are better than the run of the mill, make them at least a bit better than the average? Otherwise, you are saying that religious people are more stupid and more morally retarded than the average; that despite having this superior, transcendent belief system, they are still no better than anyone else!

Good point, except there is no such person as "religious people." Better to look at the individuals who do say religion has made them better people, and better to look at the people who we all agree have made the world better (Jesus, Gandhi, King, etc.) and examine the role not just faith but doctrine (God loves us all, so all men are equal, so all humankind is equal, so gays are equal to straights, . . . ) played in making them so.

if mankind were perfect, there would be no need for religion

mankind is not perfect, therefore it was inevitable that moral structure would
be created to give a platform for aspiration for those furthest away from perfection

so you end up with hindu aspirational levels, buddhist tiers of understanding,
the shackle & chain of catholicism, etc

as with most things, they run into trouble when people insist that others act as they do

(Attention Mack - that last one was for you...)

and of course, the telephone game inevitably distorts religions & religious messages sent long ago

if there was a God, why would he not communicate with us regularly?