The Never Ending Pool

BabyBlue, I appreciate where you're coming from. You're right - I'm only 26, so my viewpoint of Dylan is quite different from yours. Maybe if I had grown up and actually experienced that era, my post would have been different. As it is, all I can really say is that our perspectives reflect the song in different ways, and there's not much of a way to change that.

Thank you for reading, and for contributing your own viewpoint!

i think that's the difference between a song like "oxford town" and "masters of war".
oxford town ages, masters doesn't.

i'm 27 and i can't relate to oxford town.

I think it's a good thing that this blog comes from somebody who did not live those times. His view will be objective, uninfluenced by personal memories.

icq wrote:

QUOTE:
i think that's the difference between a song like "oxford town" and "masters of war".
oxford town ages, masters doesn't.

i'm 27 and i can't relate to oxford town.

I think it's a good thing that this blog comes from somebody who did not live those times. His view will be objective, uninfluenced by personal memories.

seriously, though, how can one be objective about art whether he or she lived in the time it was produced or not

Tony Ling wrote:

QUOTE:
Waist Deep, thank you very much! Your compliment is most appreciated.

country bill, were those countries you mentioned US territories at the time? If they were, then my apologies for leaving that out.

The new update's above.

yes they were; that's why i included them. why would i mention them if they weren't?

and i don't think bob ever wrote protest songs. he wrote descriptive or situational songs.

i haven't seen any of this before. I looked at the blog thing. Song I see up there is "Honey, Just Allow Me One More Chance".

doesn't seem like Bob is taking this seriously?

huh

filler not killer -- are you kidding?

far more so these days than then

now I've seen the "Oxford Town" post.

you don't start off a critique (is this your intention to critique Bob Dylan's songs?) with an outright personal opinion. I don't care whether you like or not, doesn't edify me.

As far as the tune -- it's great -- talkin' 'bout the music. I love to play this tune. The lyrics, yes they are not the most informative about what transpired. The song takes the shape of something like Dylan's earlier song "Man On the Street". Moreso, the ending he uses to "The Ballad of Hollis Brown". The inevitability and despair.

This is actually the only song I've ever visualized Bobby and Suze as a couple.

No, it's hardly one of his best. I don't know what the "protest songs" are, but to lump this with "Who Killed Davey Moore" is way off.

What is the point of that "coincidence ???" ? I mean ...

country bill, not speaking for icq, but I think he meant objectivity only in the sense that my memories are (more or less) purely based on the music, and not on having grown up and lived with Dylan's career and the times around him, which could occasionally color feelings about songs and musicians. My feelings about Nirvana are caught up, to some degree, in the fact that my formulative years coincided with their rise and Cobain's suicide; it affected me profoundly when I was 13.

You're absolutely right in that art cannot be objectively written about; my blog is entirely subjective, and should be read as such, which is why I'm okay with criticism. There are bound to be disagreements. And I didn't know those were US territories, that's all. My apologies if this rankled you.

clairedelalune, my blog is not entirely meant to critique the songs. I'm going to write about whether or not I like them, because that cannot be avoided, but for the most part I'm just writing about what the songs make me think about. There's a few introduction/explanation posts on the blog proper that (I hope) more properly explain what I want the blog to be. Believe me, critique on Dylan is not hard to find; nor is reasoned analysis. I'm not smart enough to do either; all I can do is write about what I feel about his songs in my gut. This might make the blog hard to read, and I will certainly miss facts not totally related to my emotions (as Warren proved in the last post). All I can do is offer my apologies; this blog isn't for everybody, and I'd be stupid not to know that right off the bat. I don't claim to be an expert on anything, or even Bob Dylan's biggest fan (whatever THAT means). I'm just a guy who had an idea to write about his songs and hopefully build an audience that likes what I write. No more, no less.

I've always thought, for example, a song like "Only A Pawn In Their Game" is an outright protest song, for example - I mean, what else could it be? He's clearly protesting against the treatment of African-Americans. To disagree with country bill (and my apologies, once again), I think that Bob's descriptions and situations are meant to provoke a reaction, and that reaction is often supposed to be against institutions that commit murder, practice racism, foster war. That, to me, feels like protest.

I will say, for the record, that it was rather harsh to lump the song in with "Who Killed Davey Moore?", although I think both of them suffer from a lack of subtlety. "Oxford Town" is a more musically pleasant listen, and certainly not as red-light obvious.

The "coincidence???" bit was a joke; I will make those, from time to time, with varying degrees of success.

And as far as "Honey, Just Allow Me One More Chance"...well, what's that line the man said about being right from your side, and I am right from mine?

well, there are few things worse than critique and analyses of Bob Dylan songs, so I'm glad you're not doing that.

However, you seem to not just be writing about any gut reaction, but are intellectualizing and theorizing about the songs.

Now, Only A Pawn in Their Game isn't a song about the treatment of the southern Negroes (using the word of the time) alone. In fact, what made a unique was it's different take, one that was certainly prevalent amongst Marxists and the like, that this was also an issue deeply tied into the notion of "class", and that the power-brokers relied on this selling of superiority to the "poor-white" segment of society.

It's not simply the murder of Medgar Evers as white against black, but the whole machinery of lies that actually fueled hatred by white-Americans who had the least.

Well, I can't just write about ANY old gut reaction; who would want to read that? Let me rephrase my previous statement - I externalize the immediate reactions to a song I listen to, fleshing them out as much as possible to make them readable and put them in some sort of intellectual context. Upon reading that, it's probably not the same thing. I just hope I'm not misleading anyone.

I see what you're talking about re: "Only A Pawn In Their Game", but that still makes for a protest song, no? Only kidding; it does add more layers to the song knowing that there's more to it than just "f u, Mr. Bigot!", but that there's also considerations of our social strata at work, and that does elevate the song beyond mere "finger-pointing" status. I'm glad you pointed this out; it could come in most handy for my post on the song (for which, of course, you'll receive full credit, if I write about that issue).

Out of curiosity, what is your avatar?

clairdelalune wrote:

QUOTE:
well, there are few things worse than critique and analyses of Bob Dylan songs, so I'm glad you're not doing that.

However, you seem to not just be writing about any gut reaction, but are intellectualizing and theorizing about the songs.

Now, Only A Pawn in Their Game isn't a song about the treatment of the southern Negroes (using the word of the time) alone. In fact, what made a unique was it's different take, one that was certainly prevalent amongst Marxists and the like, that this was also an issue deeply tied into the notion of "class", and that the power-brokers relied on this selling of superiority to the "poor-white" segment of society.

It's not simply the murder of Medgar Evers as white against black, but the whole machinery of lies that actually fueled hatred by white-Americans who had the least.

yes, it's about being used and being blind to that use. it just happens to have been put in a racial conext. if you continue the marxist line of thought, ultimately bob is saying to people such as byron de la beckwith and the segment of society he represented was that you are being led by those who do not have your best interests at heart to see the wrong people as your enemy. actually, in many ways the poor blacks and whites have much more in common socio-economically than they have differences. the marxist would want these two segments of society to band together against the real oppressors -- those who would pit poor blacks against poor whites and manipulate them using hatred and fear to turn them into enemies. divide and conquer you know. the marxist would want them to rise up united.

before you embark upon any more of your write-ups about songs from this period you may want to brush up on some history, philosophy, political thought, arts and culture, etc. these songs were not written in a vacuum and we need no more thin soup.

do you even know who medgar evers was? and btw davey moore is more about collective guilt rather than boxing per se.

I do, in fact, know who Medgar Evers was. I know who Mario Savio was (he sounds a lot like JFK), I know who George Wallace was, I know who Frank Mankiewicz was, and so on and so forth. That wasn't condescension by any chance, was it?

"Who Killed Davey Moore?" does have a lot to say about collective guilt and about mass denial, but I assume Dylan couched it in a boxing metaphor because that's the way it worked best. That's just my opinion, though.

The songs weren't written in a vacuum, no, but simply suggesting that they are meant to be viewed entirely in the context of 1963 strikes me as another narrow viewpoint. Fingers crossed, I hope I can balance those two out. Maybe I won't be able to. Like I said, I'm not that smart.

It occurs to me that most of the posters here are older, wiser, and more experienced than I am; there are plenty of you that have followed Dylan's career from day one, I am sure. I have nothing but the utmost respect for you, believe me. My blog cannot be entirely written from that perspective - I can quote names, dates, theories, etc., but in the end I'm really only limited to who I am as a person when I write this, just like any other author is when they write anything. If you don't like who that person is, I'm afraid I can't help you. If you think the soup is thin, no need to eat it.

I know who Mario Savio was (he sounds a lot like JFK),

we must know different mario savios then

The songs weren't written in a vacuum, no, but simply suggesting that they are meant to be viewed entirely in the context of 1963 strikes me as another narrow viewpoint.

where do i say that? i was merely pointing out that some background helps in understanding.



If you think the soup is thin, no need to eat it.

or to waste gas cooking it

The Mario Savio I know is the one who gave the "you got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the levers" speech. He has a couple speech patterns that, to my ears, sounds like JFK - in fact, the first time I heard him, I thought it actually was JFK. Your mileage may vary.

I do get that background helps in understanding. I also think that background only helps so much.

And I happen to think my writing isn't a waste of time, meticulous research or no meticulous research; it is, in fact, something I enjoy doing and take pride in. Once again, your mileage may vary.

My apologies again if my tone has been anything other than level and polite. I truly want to make sure no toes are being stepped upon.

the word avatar is vastly misused.

that photo isn't an avatar. don't get your hopes up I ain't neither.

I never want to disuade anyone from writing. Just like to keep you on her toes.

Well, seeing as how this thread is so, erm, popular right now, I'll just bump it here with the update.

And the song being blogged about is "The Time's They Are A-Changin'", so certainly there will be no controversy over THAT entry...