The Never Ending Pool

Thank you for the exceptionally well thought out and written post,
this is what i hope for when I read the forum, not the smart-aleck wisecracks of ignoramusus that proliferate here (with the exception of many of those from Plain jane, who actually possesses with and intelligence)
I have made just two comments in response to your many arguments, all of which i found well-considered and worthy of reflection.


Well, I wouldn't call Paul a madman. Have you read his letters? Some of the finest writing in the New Testament. Agree that Pauline Christianity is actually a different thing from the "original" Jewish Christianity. But he made a narrow religion centred around a single people into the world's first universal religion, open to everyone whatever their race, social or legal status, or gender, and to free and slave alike. That's true, whether you regard Christianity as ultimately pernicious, as I do, or not. It was the world's first mass democratic movement, at least until it became the state religion of the Roman Empire.

precisely my point. he transformed a cult into a religion. i agree that his writing is splendid, but his letters are the basis of much that is pernicious n christianity. without them, however, the new testament would be such a slim volume that it may not have survived in any form.




What I think is definitely a cult within Catholicism is the worship of the Virgin Mary and the Saints, which, as Gibbon pointed out, represents a recrudescence of polytheism within a supposedly monotheistic religion (leaving aside the argument as to whether Trinitarianism already marks the beginning of that process).[/quote]

there are many cults within the catholic church and the mary cult is among the most prominent.

You know, I was just about to snark, but now I'm going to hold my tongue. Damn you, Wurlitzer, you just had to say something nice about me.

Still Mack wrote:

QUOTE:
Who cares as long as their happy and leave you alone ?

Unfortunately, "they" won't leave me alone. Or the rest of the world, which they are keeping in the dark ages.

You guys are definitely smart and I enjoy reading a lot of your stuff when you aren't insulting each other!

Much of what you post "on-topic" is very interesting and educational, for me anyway...it's the kind of posting we want and like here and I definitely enjoy it.

raggedclown wrote:

QUOTE:
Still Mack wrote:

QUOTE:
Who cares as long as their happy and leave you alone ?

Unfortunately, "they" won't leave me alone. Or the rest of the world, which they are keeping in the dark ages.

No kidding. And it is perpetuated by otherwise well meaning people. I got an email from one of those friends, concerning a petition about removing religious content from the air. I scrolled down the list of names, and sure enough, she'd signed it.

I felt obligated to enlighten her - Religious Broadcast Rumor Denied - and also mentioned that although I enjoyed personal correspondence from her, would she please remove me from her mailing list before she forwards anymore petitions or chain mail.

I also gave her a link to snopes.

"Nothing Frightens Me More
Than Religion At My Door"
- John Cale

PS: Why do I see "Moronism" everytime I see the title on the forum page?

what about jesus not trying to form a new religion but perfect the jewish faith - jesus still prays "our father..." his goal being the modernization of the jewish faith from the old testament fire and brimstone to the nuance of the sermon on the mount.

james was apparently not aggressive enough in forwarding the cult of jesus and was too limited in his target audience. this provided an opportunity to paul to "market" a new faith in ways that jesus did not appear to intend. constantine would more broadly apply this same principle later. paul and constintine in order to clean up what had been a radical "vision" movement based on individual experience centralized and sanitized the story, hierarchy, and rules.

without the "bureuacracy" as it were, the resulting religion could not be used as a tool for control of the population for empire and wealth.

nice analysis of the mormon question.

Not perfect, divido, but fulfill. Remember the prophecies of the messiah? "Target Audience," "market," "centralize" and "sanitize" for the sake of empire and wealth? Paul died in prison, a not unlikely outcome to his preaching. Some people just experience the love of God and are moved to share it with everyone else.

raggedclown wrote:

QUOTE:
Still Mack wrote:

QUOTE:
Who cares as long as their happy and leave you alone ?

Unfortunately, "they" won't leave me alone.

Really, ragged? Do they come after you in your bed?

raggedclown wrote:

QUOTE:
Unfortunately, "they" won't leave me alone. Or the rest of the world, which they are keeping in the dark ages.

That sounds RC like a death scene from Shakespeare or something. If being attacked by religious people is your greatest worry your a lucky man !

And wurlitzer you sound like you need to listen to HWY 61 just a little more often !

Not Henry Porter wrote:

QUOTE:
Still Mack wrote:

QUOTE:
Who cares as long as their happy and leave you alone ?

I agree. If the Christians stay out of politics and don't try to mold our society into one that only they comfortably enjoy, we should not concern ourselves with it.

They will as soon as Atheists/Humanists stop doing the same thing from the other side...

And wurlitzer you sound like you need to listen to HWY 61 just a little more often !


the album or the song?
and why?

When I said "they" won't leave me alone, I meant religious fundamentalists in general, not just Mormons.

I am not personally threatened by Mormons in the U.K., even though there is a huge Mormon temple near where my parents live. The Church of the LDS is a very obviously wealthy institution.

But as far as I know, they don't interfere in politics in the way they do in the United States, where they basically bankrolled California's Proposition 8 to deprive gays of some of their civil rights in blatant breach of the U.S. Constitution.

A private individual or nonreligious organization that wants to support a political campaign financially can only do so after figuring out how much money he/she/it has left after paying tax. That puts religious organizations, to whom the IRS turns a blind eye, ignoring the condition of their non-tax status, in an advantaged position over any other individual or lobby in the United States.

The Mormon Church, founded by convicted fraudster, counterfeiter, plagiarist and polygamist Joseph Smith, is in any case a strange organization to be defending the "traditional" view of marriage, having already changed its own definition of marriage in 1890, outlawing polygamy, for the purely pragmatic and political purpose of gaining admission to the Union (which was duly granted in 1896). Prior to this, in the 1850s, there had been great conflict between the federal government and the Mormon Church, culminating in the Utah War (1857-58) and the notorious Mountain Meadows Massacre (1857), when Mormons killed 120 Arkansas immigrants, leaving their bodies exposed on the plains for two years afterwards.

You would think that Mormons would seek to draw a veil over their bloody past and their doctrinal u-turns (they committed another one in 1978 in order not to fall foul of civil rights legislation; prior to that the church was openly racist), rather than draw attention to them by opposing another group's civil rights. But hypocrisy and religion are second cousins, particularly in a religion that is so obviously a racket like Mormonism.

But it's not just Mormons of course. Here is the full list of churches and other religious organizations that backed Prop 8:

Churches:

A. V. Alpha & Omega Ministries, Palmdale
Abundant Life Assembly of God, Copeland
All Seasons Ministries, El Cajon
Alpha and Omega Arlington Apostolic Church, Riverside
Alpine Anglican Church, Alpine
Amador Family Fellowship
Baldwin Park Church of Christ
Bethel Christian Fellowship
Bible Fellowship Church, Ventura
Biggs Community Assembly of God
Bright Mission Chapel
Bundy Canyon Christian Church and School, Wildomar
Calvary Assembly of God
Calvary Assembly, Milpitas
Calvary Baptist Church
Calvary Baptist Church, Modesto
Calvary Chapel of the Harbour
Calvary Chapel Chino Hills
Calvary Chapel Rancho Santa Margarita
Calvary Christian Center
Calvary Church
Calvary Temple
Camarillo Community Church
Canopy of Prayer Ministries
Canyon View Church of Christ, San Diego
Cathedral of the Blessed Sacrament
Centerpoint Church
Central Baptist Church of Indio
Centro Cristiano Pan De Vida
Chapel in the Pines, Arnold
Chinese Evangelical Free Church, Monterey Park
Chinese Grace Bible Church, Sacramento
Christ Driven Church of Fowler Ca.
Christian Life Assembly
Christian Life Center
Christian Life Tools
Christian Outreach for Armenians, Glendale
Church of Christ, Upland
Church of the Living Christ
Church of the Living God of Perris Church of the Nazarene
Church of the Rock
Church of Scientology of San Diego
Community Counseling Services, Inc.
Community Christian Alliance Church
Core Christian Fellowship, Murrieta
Cornerstone Baptist Church
Cornerstone Baptist Church, Nicholasville KY
Cornerstone Christian Church, El Dorado Hills
Cornerstone Community Church of San Clemente
Cornerstone Fellowship, Livermore
CrossPoint Community Church of the Nazarene
Dan Kricorian Ministries Int'l
Dayspring Christian Fellowship
Desert Stream Ministries
Destiny Faith Center
Divine Mercy Knights of Columbus (14158), Natomas
Door of Faith Ministries International
East Clairemont Baptist Church, San Diego
Eastside Christian Church
El Cajon Wesleyan Church, El Cajon
Elsinore Christian Center, Lake Elsinore
Evangelical Free Church of Walnut
Faith Chapel Church of God in Christ, San Diego
Faith Community Church by the Sea, Encinitas
Faith Tabernacle
Faith to Faith Fellowship, Temecula
F.C.F.Int'l Ministries
Filipino American Community Church
First Baptist Church Anaheim
First Baptist Church of Fillmore
First Baptist Church of Hesperia
First Baptist Church of Menlo Park
First Baptist Church of Taft
First Baptist Church, Lomita
First Evangelical Church of Cerritos
First Fil-Am Christian Church
First Foursquare Gospel Church of San Jose, San Jose
First Fundamental Bible Church of Monterey Park
First Presbyterian Church, Amarillo TX
First Southern Baptist, Yucca Valley
Fontana Foursquare Church
Foxworthy Baptist Church
Free Indeed Christian Fellowship, Perris
Freedom Community Christian Church, Perris
Freewill Missionary Baptist Church, San Diego
Freewill Missionary Baptist Church, San Diego
Friends Church, Yorba Linda
Friendship Christian Fellowship Church, Moreno Valley
Gem of the Valley Church, Murrieta
God's Word Church, Apple Valley
Golden Altar Ministries, San Jose
Golden Gate Christian Church
Hamilton Square Baptist Church
Harvest Christian Fellowship
Heart of the Canyons Church
High Desert Church, Victorville
Highland Springs Fellowship, Banning
Hillsdale Baptist Church, North Highlands
Hope Vineyard Church, Santa Clarita
House of Luke, Hemet
Independent Church of Lake Elsinore
Irvine First Chinese Baptist Church
Joy Ministry for Christ, Los Angeles
Jubilee Family Church, Oskaloosa IA
Kingdom Conditioning Ministries, INC.
Koinonia Evangelistic Center, Moreno Valley
Lake Murray Church, Assemblies of God
Life Center Church, Lakewood
Light by the Bay Church, San Lorenzo
Lighthouse Assembly of God, Murrieta
Lighthouse Community Church, Lathrop
Live Ride Christian Church
Living Faith Christian Fellowship, Garden Grove
Living Stones Ministries
Living Word Christian Church, San Diego
Love and Unity Church of God in Christ, Compton
Luke Four Eighteen Ministries International, Temecula
Maranatha Chapel
Maranatha Chapel, Rancho Bernardo
Menlo Park Community Church of God in Christ, Menlo Park
Meridian Southern Baptist, El Cajon
Mount Pisgah Baptist Church, San Diego
Mountain View Community Church, Temecula
Mount Zion Assemblies
Napoleon Washington, Jr. Evangelistic Assn.
Nations Harvest Church, Sunnyvale
New Birth Kingdom Covenant
New Covenant Ministries Christian Fellowship
New Day Church
New Destiny Christian Church, Inc.
New Life Presbyterian Church
New Light Church of God, Riverside
New Seasons Church
Newhall Church of the Nazarene
New Venture Christian Fellowship
Northside Christian Church
Oasis of Faith Christian Center
Oroville Nazarene Church
Our Lady of the Redwoods Catholic Church
Our Redeemer Lives Church, Lake Elsinore
Paradise Hills Southern Baptist Church
Progressive M.B.C.of Berkeley
Rancho Baptist Church, Temecula
Ray of Hope Church, Pomona
Redemption Christian Fellowship
Refuge Ministries
Resurrection Power Ministries
Revival Christian Fellowship, Menifee
Ripon Grace Brethren Church
Rose Drive Friends Church, Yorba Linda
Rubidoux First Assembly of God
San Antonio Heights Community Church, San Bernardino
San Diego Christian Worship Center, San Diego
San Jose Church of Christ, San Jose
San Jose Foursquare Church, San Jose
San Jose Open Bible Church, San Jose
San Jose Word of Faith Christian Center, San Jose
San Mateo Pro Life
Santa Rosa Diocesan Council of Catholic Women
Set Free Ministries of San Diego, San Diego
Seventh Day Sabbath Second Advent Church
Sierra Madre Congregational Church
Shepherd of the Hills
Skyline Wesleyan Church, El Cajon
Solid Ground Brethren in Christ Church, Alta Loma
Sonoma Valley Community Church
South Coast Christian Assembly
South Valley Christian Church, San Jose
Southwest Christian Church, Temecula
Southwest Community Church, Indian Wells
Spirit Life Worship Center
St.Andrew Orthodox Church
St.Joseph Church
St Timothy Orthodox Church
St.Mary Catholic Church
St.Patrick's Church
State College Blvd.Church of Christ, Anaheim
Survivors of Assault Recovery/Living Word Christian Church, San Diego
TEN27 Church
The Bridge Church
The Calvary Chapel Churches
The Church of God of Prophecy, National City
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints
The Home Church, Campbell
The Oasis Foursquare Church
The Rock Church, San Diego
Trinity Baptist Church
Tyler Baptist Church, Riverside
Valley Christian Church, Chino
Victory International Church, San Mateo
Victory Outreach of Eagle Rock
Vineyard Family Christian Fellowship, Downey
Vista Hope Church of the Nazarene
Voices of Hope Ministries
Whittier Church of Christ, Whittier
Wildwood Calvary Chapel
Windsor Hills Baptist Church, La Mesa
Word of Life Ministries Int'l, Riverside
Word of Truth Ministries
World Overcomers Church International
Zion Christian Fellowship, Spring Valley
Zion Lutheran Church, North Highlands, CA

Organizations

Active Christian Media
Advocates for Faith and Freedom
Agudath Israel of California
Alliance Defense Fund, serving as Legal Counsel
American Family Association
American Veterans Christian Alliance
Americas Hope
Armineh Chelebian for State Assembly 40th AD
Association of Christian Schools International, Northern and Southern Districts of CA
Bakersfield Republican Assembly
Bethel Baptist Academy
Brethren in Christ Church Pacific Conference
California Catholic Conference of Bishops
California Catholic Women's Forum
California Family Alliance
California Family Council
Capitol Resource Institute
Catholics at Work
Catholics for Protectmarriage. com
Catholics for the Common Good
Celebration Center, Modesto, CA
Center for Reclaiming America
CFFC-LA
Christians OnDemand
Communities of Western Washington African American Healthy Marriage Initiative
Comunidad Cristiana Internacional Campus Los Angeles
Seasoned Sisters
Bill and Pam Farrel Marriage and Family Communicators
National Organization for Marriage
FHR
Christian Citizenship Council of San Diego
Christian Educators Association International
Christian Examiner Newspaper
Concerned Women for America
Confraternidad Hispaņa Bautista de California (Hispanic Southern Baptist Fellowship)
Coral Ridge Ministries
Creation Research of North America
Creation Research of the North Coast
Dobbins/Oregon House Action Committee
Duncan Hunter for 52nd Congressional District
Eagle Forum of California
Eagle Forum of Sacramento
East County Refuge Center
El Camino Christian Fellowship
ElectionForum. org
Evidence for God from Science
Faith2Action
Faith 316
Family Leader Network
Family Research Council
Father Neil W.Seidl Council # 13672
Focus on the Family
Foursquare International
G51 Group
Golden State Association of Christian Schools
Government for the People
Holistic Integrated Services Foundation (HIS), Fullerton
Home Fellowship
Iglesia de la Colina - RCA
Ignite Youth/New Wine Church
Institute for Families and Taxpayers
Jewish New Testament Publications, Inc.
Kerigma Entertainment
Knights of Columbus Council #3052
Knights of Columbus Frances Cabrini Council #8879
Knights of Columbus St.Elizabeth Council #8747, Milpitas
Knights of Columbus St.Michael's of Marin Council #10530, Novato
Knights of Columbus Council #12887, Roseville
Knights of Columbus Council #11724, Sacramento
Knights of Columbus Orange County
Knights of Columbus San Jose
Knights of Columbus St.Raphael Council #1292, San Rafael
Koinonia Sports & Fitness Assoc.
La Familia Hispana
Legacy Law Foundation
Liberty Counsel
Life After Foster Care
Los Angeles Community Builders Inc
Lydia Gutierrez for State Senate
Marriage and Parenting Students of Christ (MAPS)
Meridian Magazine
Network of Politically Active Christians
North Coast Republican Club
One Heart Foundation
Organized Business Council
Orthodox Union
Pacific Justice Institute
Pastors Rapid Response Team (Pastors in Coalition with ProtectMarriage. com)
Preserve Liberty
Proposition 22 Legal Defense and Education Fund
Public Awareness Ministries
Rancho Bernardo Baptist Church
Rancho Del Rey Church
RelayFast08
Republican Party of Riverside County
Revive Indonesia
Sacramento District Church of the Nazarene
SanDiegoAnglicans. com
Sonoma County Republican Party
Southbay Crossing
St.Mary's Charismatic Prayer Group
The Center for Teaching the Constitution
The Holy Name Society
The Knights of Columbus, Council 1346, San Mateo, CA
The River Worship Center
The Rock of Roseville
The Western Center for Law & Policy
Traditional Family Coalition
Traditional Values Coalition
Trinity Life Solutions
NorthBay Neonatology Associates, Inc.
Families First Counseling Services
Ebmeyer Charter & Tour
Superior Organizing Services
Ventura County Christian Leadership Council
Come Let Us Reason
Environmental Geology Services
54th AD Republican Central Committee
United Families California
Values Advocacy Council
VOCAL Californians for the Preservation of Family & Marriage
Wycliffe Bible Translators, Temecula

I know that there are many individuals with religious convictions who supported the other side, who see a state embargo on their right to marry gay and lesbian citizens as an infringement of their religious freedom, which is also protected in the U.S. Constitution. But they are outnumbered by the conservative religious groups trying to impose their religious interpretation on what has always been a secular institution in the United States, as in most other countries. (I remind everyone that contrary to the lies peddled by the supporters of Prop 8, there was never any requirement for religious institutions to marry anyone against their will; nor will there be as long as religious freedom is guaranteed by the Constitution.)

I don't see American gays as accepting a situation in which they have been the only group in America to be told "No, you can't", and I'm hugely proud and in complete solidarity with my American friends in California and elsewhere who are fighting for their recognition as full citizens. I feel particularly sad for the sizeable non-Mormon minority of the State of Utah, who are forced to live in a Mormon theocracy despite the Constitution's guarantee of a "wall" between religion and the state.

The strange thing about the U.K. is that while (to my regret, obviously) we have a state religion, paradoxically our politics are largely free of religious interference. Why that should be is a very intriguing question, but this post is way too long already.